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"Daring leaps of faith"
Posted by Julia Duin on 28-Jan-03, 02:51 PM (GMT)
Daring leaps of faith By Julia Duin THE WASHINGTON TIMES NEW YORK Seated several floors above a busy Manhattan thoroughfare, the two Egyptian men were restless. "You have to be careful here," one said. "The hot dog stand owners, the taxi cab drivers, they are Muslims and they listen to everything." Having just come out of church, they were at an indoor cafe, conversing about former Muslims they knew who were now Christians. Some married into the faith. Some of the converts no longer believed in the Koran. Others said they had had visions or dreams of Jesus Christ. And others felt the Christian message of God becoming a man was more compelling than their faith. These converts face all kinds of dangers for having left Islam: ostracism from family members and friends, kidnappings and even death threats. "Most of the people who come here start to question the Koran," one of the Egyptians said. "They can read sources not available in our countries, especially sources in Arabic." The government of Saudi Arabia, for example, blocks thousands of Web sites through its Internet Services Unit in Riyadh, including anything criticizing Islam. A Harvard University study conducted in May showed that out of 2,038 sites banned by the Saudis, 250 were religious. In the West, seekers who've never heard a serious debate on Islam can click on Exmuslim.com, Islamreview.com and Arabicbible.com. Then there's Paltalk.com, a chat site featuring discussions in various languages on a wide range of topics. Some former Muslims enter these chat rooms with the intent to convert Arabic speakers to Christianity, including "Sam Ash," a New Jersey hairdresser. "I ask them to prove to me that Islam is the way to God," he said. "Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life. If you can show I have eternal life through Muhammad, I'll become a Muslim this moment." There is no lack of people who wish to challenge him, which is why he will not divulge his real name. "I've been hacked" into, he said, "and you should see the viruses people send me." Most of these converts keep their new affiliation secret, as Islam considers those who leave the faith to be apostates. According to Islamic law as practiced in countries such as Iran, Sudan, Pakistan and in northern regions of Nigeria, the penalty for changing one's religion is execution. The U.S. State Department has documented numerous instances of religious persecution overseas against Muslim converts to Christianity. What is not so well known are the threats against such converts in the United States. Some have simply been shunned by their families. Others have been kidnapped by family members and friends, and put on a plane back home. All are reluctant to ask for protection from U.S. law enforcement, especially those converts with Arabic surnames who are leery of getting their names on a U.S. police report. However, there are no known instances of converts from Islam to Christianity who have been killed in the United States for their decision to leave their faith. Most established Christian denominations are unaware of the situation, as converts attend Bible study groups in their own language or small hidden churches that appear on no denominational radar. No academic research has been done on such converts. The closest figures are those by David Barrett, co-author of the World Christian Encyclopedia, who estimates that within U.S. borders, 50,000 Christians per year turn to Islam while 20,000 Muslims adopt Christianity. Befriending the latter, the men say, is a dicey proposition. "It's written in their books," one said. "You cannot be a friend with unbelievers." 'Christ in the Koran' The Rev. Esper Ajaj, the Syrian-born pastor of Washington Arabic Baptist Church at 4605 Massachusetts Ave. NW in the District, concedes that there are dangers to working with Muslims. Situated within walking distance of American University, he gets a fair amount of seekers at his door. "They want to ask questions," he said. "Sometimes they come to pray here. Then they have a cup of coffee, and I talk to them. Then I discuss the greatness of Christ in the Koran. "We've seen more Muslims in become Christians more than any time in history. If they are open-minded, it is easy. If they are closed-minded, it is not." He is writing a book tentatively titled, "Difficult Questions a Muslim Asks" but confesses that "I don't know if I'll put my name on it." "Look at Salman Rushdie," he said, referring to the Muslim author from India whose 1988 book "The Satanic Verses" earned him a death warrant from Persian mullahs. "One guy called my wife and said, 'Let Esper die.' They could give a person $1,000 and shoot me, and no one would know." Mr. Ajaj said Christianity is not logical to a Muslim mind that cannot fathom worshipping someone who was ridiculed, then killed. Muslims are divided on whether Jesus even died, and the Koran said Jesus was snatched up to heaven by God before the Crucifixion. Some Muslim commentators think Judas Iscariot or Simon of Cyrene died in His place, and none believe He rose from the dead. The Rev. Hisham Kamel, pastor of the Arabic Evangelical Church in Temple City, Calif., said the certainty of heaven is what draws Muslims to risk losing family and friends when they accept Christ. "In Islam, the only way they know they'll get to heaven is if they take part in jihad," he said. But there is a downside of working with converts, said the Rev. Charles Farag of Trinity Arabic Baptist Church in Raleigh, N.C. Two years ago, he gave one convert, who showed up at his door with a hard-luck story, one of his favorite cars, a 1994 black Chrysler New Yorker. The convert totaled the car the next day, then showed up back at the church, saying someone had tried to run him off the road. "Sometimes people lie so they can apply for religious asylum," Mr. Farag said. "Then, after they receive help from you, you never hear from them again." The Immigration and Naturalization Service refused to provide details on religious asylum requests. Sometimes even offering sympathy to a convert brings opposition. One Washington area pastor asked not to be named because of a nearby mosque that has been scrutinizing him. "I have seven Muslims who have converted," he said. "I do not want any trouble." Ann Buwalda, an immigration lawyer for Just Law International in Fairfax, said she's been approached by Pakistani converts who are refugees. One man, "Masih," was working at a retail store in Northern Virginia, she said, when a Muslim co-worker from Pakistan noticed he was wearing a cross. The man asked Masih why he was wearing it. "I am Christian," said Masih. The Muslim co-worker became angry, called him derogatory names in their native language, shoved him in a hallway and thereafter tried to get him fired and threatened him after work one night. "He told the security guards at the retail store, so the employer has separated the two," Ms. Buwalda said. "I worry about these people. I have given him a cell phone so he can call 911 if these guys stalk him. He has informally told police about it but filed no report" because, she adds, most refugees view American law enforcement in the same light as police from their own countries: people to be avoided at all costs. She tells of another young female convert who wears a cross and who was stalked by a Muslim Pakistani taxi driver in the retail store where she works. Yet another Pakistani woman who converted to Christianity was threatened with death by Pakistani neighbors. "That kind of stuff, it's frightening when it happens," Ms. Buwalda said. Victor Gill, a Pakistani immigrant who lives in Philadelphia and who leads a ministry called Christian Voice of Pakistan, said converts are regularly harassed in the United States. "The threat is real," he said. "They think they are doing something to earn credit with God when they kill Christians. When John Walker Lindh converted to Islam, his family supported him. But not so for the converts here. The Koran said people who leave Islam must be killed." Killing converts Actually, that instruction is in the Hadith, a collection of the sayings of Muhammad, the founder of Islam. It has been enforced in varying ways. Female converts are usually imprisoned in a room for months or years as a sort of psychological torture until they recant. As for the men, all the traditional schools of Shariah (Islamic) law stipulate that "apostates" those who leave their faith must die. But before they die, they lose all civil liberties. Their children are taken away, their marriage is dissolved, they lose their family inheritance and they cannot be buried in a Muslim graveyard. One dissident to this traditional interpretation of the Hadith is Taha Jabir Alawani, president of the Graduate School for Islamic Social Sciences in Leesburg, Va. He said the apostate rule was formed in the early seventh century, when leaving one's religion was seen as a traitorous act. "Mine is a minority opinion," he said. "There's a certain hadith that said if anyone changes his or her religion, he deserves to be killed. In my research, I found that was linked to some people who were trying to penetrate the Muslim community at the time in Medina. They came from Jewish or pagan communities, and announced they had become Muslims. Then after a few days, they announced they had found this religion to be very bad and they had decided to go back to their religions: Judaism, paganism, whatever. "The Prophet was trying to stop that kind of conspiracy so he said that if anyone changes from the religion he has adopted, we will kill him. Islamic jurists < scholars> have not paid attention to nature] of that event. They have generalized that hadith to say if anyone practices apostasy, we should kill him." Not only has the Hadith been misunderstood, Mr. Alawani said, but the famous Koranic command that there is "no compulsion" in the choice of one's religion has been ignored. "Everyone has the full right to choose his or her religion," he said. "No one should interfere with that." He is writing a book on the topic but jokes that it should never be released in countries where Islamic law is in full force. "I should stay away from Pakistan and other places, or I would lose my neck," he said. "Some people living in America even, they don't like those kind of opinions. They will say: 'Don't listen to him. He is trying to Americanize Islam.'" Some Muslims who convert to Christianity in this country are ordered home immediately, said Samy Tanagho, an Egyptian evangelist associated with Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, Calif. "Last year we had one of the princesses from the Saudi royal family who came with her mother who was seeking medical treatment," he said. "I led her to Christ. It was a huge problem with her family. "Her faith was genuine. We tried to help her and even contacted Congress to try to protect her. All of a sudden, her family sent a limousine to where she was living and they took her away. She didn't have much support here from Christians, and her family had cut off all financial support." A California lawyer, who asked to remain unnamed for safety reasons, confirmed this account, adding that a security firm hired by the Saudi consulate in Los Angeles nabbed the woman under the pretext of protecting the royal family. "Religion and conversion and the royal family; those are the hottest buttons you can push," he said. A call by this newspaper to the Saudi consulate in Los Angeles asking for comment was not returned. "Another convert I know here who is Lebanese, his family threatened to kill him," Mr. Tanagho said. Hence, he added, when he baptized a Persian woman a few years ago, she asked that her baptism be kept secret. "Egyptians and Iranians show some of the greatest interest" in Christianity, he said. "They've seen the ugly side of Islam." Iranians 'feel free' Unlike the aforementioned Pakistanis, Egyptians, Saudi Arabians and Syrians, Iranian converts reported the fewest repercussions for their faith. "I've seen some people who've come from Iran to the United States to persecute, if not kill, in order to bring back their relatives to Islam," said Kris Tedford, a Farsi-speaking American who pastors the Iranian Church of Eternal Life in Oakton. "That's not the general rule, though. More people tend to feel freer here." "Of all the Muslim nations, Iranians are the most receptive to the Gospel of Jesus Christ," said Abe Ghaffari of Iranian Christians International in Colorado Springs, Colo. "They've been so well exposed to the Islamic republican government in Iran and they have a lot of disillusionment with life there and the economy." He guesses that 7,000 evangelical Christian Iranians live in this country, mostly in California. "There was one case of an Iranian who became a Christian in New York," he said. "His wife, a Muslim, reported this to their families in Iran. The next thing, the father put pressure on him to return to Islam and even had an imam in New York call him and try to pressure and intimidate him. "He has applied for asylum here because he knows he can't return to Iran and be safe there. Under the Islamic law, he'd be severely punished and if he persisted in his Christian faith, he'd probably die. "People here are in danger, including from family members in the United States, who shun them, disown them and deprive them of any inheritance. And their family members still back in Iran get used as hostages." Mina Nevisa, an Iranian convert who lives in the Los Angeles area, has not seen her family since she and her husband fled the country in 1984. She had just started attending an underground church in Tehran with her 28-year-old female cousin when a police raid on the home of the pastor revealed a directory with a listing of names of secret converts to Christianity. The cousin was arrested on charges of apostasy and taken to the notorious Evin prison, where she was raped, tortured and then killed by a firing squad. The pastor was also killed. Mrs. Nevisa and her husband fled first to Turkey, then to Spain and then Sweden. While in Sweden, she said, she got threatening letters from the Iranian government. She said she also received threatening phone calls. The couple fled here in 1998, settling in Northern Virginia and setting up an evangelistic ministry geared toward Muslims. In 1999, she published a book: "Don't Keep Me Silent: One Woman's Escape from the Chains of Islam." The threatening calls started up again. This past January, Mrs. Nevisa said she was alone at home when a caller informed her he knew her husband was out of town. "Don't you know we know your schedule?" the caller asked. The couple decided to re-establish their ministry in Southern California, but their www.touchofchrist.net Web site leaves only e-mail addresses and post office box numbers with which to find them. "We got a letter this past Christmas saying 'die' in English," she said. "It's not only the Iranian government that wants to hurt you; it's fanatic individuals." Muslim Background Believers At Millersville University, a small college in the gentle hills just southwest of Lancaster, Pa., several hundred Arabic-speaking Christians were having their annual conference. Several called themselves MBBs: Muslim Background Believers. MBBs are former Muslims who become Christians. One Jordanian who refused to have his photo taken "Someone published my picture before and there was trouble" went by the assumed name of Maxwell Mohammed. "I go out of my way to find MBBs across the country," he said. "They have no one to talk to. Last week I got a call from New York, an Iranian couple. His family had cast him off because he had become a Christian." Mr. Mohammed, 53, who said his family has disowned him as well, said Muslim groups meet all over northern New Jersey but in numbers of 10 to 20 to escape detection. "These MBBs have unique problems," he said. "They become family-less and jobless. I help these people with money, jobs and visa problems. It's hard for these people to find mates as well. Even other Christians wonder if they'll go back to Islam. "They need a family. It's like they carry a cross their whole life. My own mother said to me: 'Your father is dead and you, too.' If you convert, you are given three days to come back. If you do not, blood is shed." He added: "It is not easy to minister to Muslims. They are good people who love and revere God. I was one of them, and if it weren't for a faithful Christian who loved me for three years, I wouldn't have seen the light of salvation through Jesus Christ." Zechariah Ananni, a Lebanese who converted to Christianity in 1975 after hearing an American missionary preach on the streets of Beirut, was also at the conference. Convinced that his life was in danger, he emigrated first to Detroit, then to Windsor, Canada, where he spends his time trying to convert Muslims to Christianity. His wife is so afraid for their lives, she has fled back to Beirut, leaving him with two young daughters. A Moroccan at the conference said his married daughters were threatened by their Muslim husbands with divorce if they so much as talked to him about his conversion to Christianity. A Palestinian woman told of how her father tore her New Testament in half when he learned she had converted. "Noor," a woman from Algeria who was converted through an Arabic-language service at Columbia Baptist Church in Falls Church, said her husband divorced her soon afterward. A court in Algiers awarded him custody of their two sons. She retains custody of a daughter. "He still bothers her a lot," Noor said. "He tells my daughter I am an unbeliever, and I am going to hell."
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Table of contents

RE: Daring leaps of faith, Observer, 29-Jan-03, (1) RE: Daring leaps of faith, Dr. S. Davati, 31-Jan-03, (2) RE: Daring leaps of faith, Nader, 15-Feb-03, (4) RE: Daring leaps of faith, former muslim, 15-Feb-03, (3) RE: Daring leaps of faith, Dr. S. Davati, 16-Feb-03, (5) RE: Daring leaps of faith, former muslim, 16-Feb-03, (6) RE: Daring leaps of faith, Dr. S. Davati, 16-Feb-03, (7) RE: Daring leaps of faith/Koran is ..., Kaveh, 17-Feb-03, (8) To all specially Nader, Observer, 17-Feb-03, (9) RE: To all specially Nader, Observer, 17-Feb-03, (10) RE: To all specially Nader, Hamzeh, Hashmi, 23-Feb-03, (11) RE: To all specially Nader, Hamzeh, Hashmi, 23-Feb-03, (12) RE: To all specially Nader, isOnlyway, 25-Sep-05, (13) blah blah blah, blah blah blah, 27-Sep-05, (14) RE: To all specially Nader, blah blah blah, 30-Sep-05, (16) On the Brink of a Neoconservative N..., On the Brink of a Neoconservative Nuclear War with Iran , 28-Sep-05, (15)

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Messages in this topic

1. "RE: Daring leaps of faith"
Posted by Observer on 29-Jan-03, 09:48 AM (GMT)
First, let me just say that I as a Iranian could not care less about muhammed and the bunch arab morons in islam. I also think that the root of all pain, war, and evil is religon whatever it is! But regarding the Iranians stating that they have become christian there is something you should know, they are doing so because they want to be able to stay outside and hence make it impossible to be returned. It has been cases there they have claimed that they were gays.....I myself was in Iran recently and have seen the sickness of this cancer called Islam with buch of psycho arab loving morons who want to impose it on everybody. What made me hopefull was thae fact that after 25 years thay have not succeded but just made it better for the future generation. How? you ask, simple for Iran to be free we have to denouce Islam and destroy it in Iran once and for all, and the "shipishoha" have done a great job. The sad part is that we and the nxt generation iranians has been sacrifized. But it is still worth it! So to answer your poster we will find freedom in becoming christians but we will have freedom the day when isalm is dead in Iran... So we do not to get out of one hell hole and fall in the next one, turning from islam to some other religon....Everybody can have whatever religon they want as long as they have it for them selves. Iran and iranians should look at our own valeus and tradition not bunch of lizard eating morons like muhammed the pedofile and his damned family nad the all the arabs...we have "ghoftare nik, pendare nik, kerdare nik" whats wrong with that? (I do not see it as religon but maybe as a way of life) islam is dead, Long live Iran P.S. You are able to buy lickors at stores in iran! just ask if they have some "ab shangholi"D.S
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2. "RE: Daring leaps of faith"
Posted by Dr. S. Davati on 31-Jan-03, 09:18 AM (GMT)
>But regarding the Iranians stating that >they have become christian there >is something you should know, >they are doing so because >they want to be able >to stay outside and hence >make it impossible to be >returned. .......... Dear Observer, Couldn't agree with you more. Although believing that religious conversions in one's own land often mark a rebellion against social injustice. But, in regards to all the cases indicated in the above article, I second your conclusion that " we do not get out of one hell hole and fall in the next one, turning from Islam to some other religion."; especially when religious conversions are used as an instrument to legalize one's immigration status in a foreign land. To those religious officials who take pride and credit for such meaningless conversions of masses to their religion of either Christianity, Bahaism or ......we must say "Let us tear down the walls of distrust between all religions. The evil over which we must triumph is hatred. We all belong to one human family, let us not divide ourselves by religious labels." Regards, Dr. S. Davati doctordavati@dr.com
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4. "RE: Daring leaps of faith"
Posted by Nader on 15-Feb-03, 07:54 AM (GMT)
Dr. fake. Who do you think you are accusing others of such nonsense? Do you know them or are you in their mind? Or maybe it is you and this stupid observer who fake themselves in any manner and form to gain whatever. Apparently you joker and this dumbly observer have faked your visas and think others are like you. No sir, or madam or crook, there are those who are honest, unlike yourself and this yellow belly observer who hides behind the alias "observer". They change for a good reason. Not crooked like you both. Yellow belly observer, what is it you are hiding from? Is immigration after you? Is it because you are hiding behind that alias and are afraid to identify yourself? Stop looking at people as though as they may be like you and conning. Go drop your doctorate degree in toilet. You have not learned a damn thing. Your philosophy sucks and I bet you got a big "F" in that course and had to send an imposter to sit in that class and take the exams for you. Why do I say this? It is because you just proved to readers that you cannot in no way judge others without hard and tangible evidence. But yet here you have accused many of converting to Christianity because of immigration. You both go to hell.
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3. "RE: Daring leaps of faith"
Posted by former muslim on 15-Feb-03, 07:18 AM (GMT)
I have converted to Christianity. I was born as a Muslim and was very much devoted to it. I read Koran in Arabic and prayed in Arabic. I came to the states and began questioning the Christianity and was making fun of Christians believing Jesus was the Son of God. I always said that is impossible god is not human and cannot have a human son. I went on and on and promoted my religion Islam against Christianity. One day someone asked me" you don’t even understand what you read because Koran is in Arabic." so to prove to him that Koran is a better book and is more powerful than bible, I went and bought a Koran in English. I read and read and read, and every versus I read kept emphasizing that if you do that or do this you will go to hell. Everything I read was about to going to hell. I said to myself this son of b... author has purposely translated Koran in his own way to make it look bad in the eyes of the readers. Then I went and found a copy of it in the university library in Farsi. I also by accident saw torah next to it. So checked out both of them. I was reading in Farsi the same as was in English. I was really depressed. I said to myself, for all these years I have devoted myself to this religion and this book, and now I find it very primitive and depressing and everything I read is about killing death and hell. And if convert to other religion I face death. How could I believe a religion that is so brutal and so bias and forces its followers to have blind faith and not free to chose what to believe except Koran and islam. Then I started without any interest turning the pages of torah. As I was glancing through this other book, it felt like I have read it before. I said it couldn’t be. So read more. I kept reading this torah and kept finding that everything written in it is so similar to Koran. I read and read and read and kept comparing it to Koran over and over. I came to the point that what I read in Koran, and was ready to close it and open torah, I almost knew what torah is going to say, as if I have already read it a minute ago in Koran. It was then that truly started doubting Koran, Mohammad and Islam. Koran was the copycat of torah and Mohammad had said nothing new. I could be a good Jew instead of Muslim or have read torah to know Koran or to be a Muslim. These 2 books were so similar, if you had replaced their titles with the other, no one would have noticed. It was several months that I resented the whole world, all the religions, especially Islam and myself. I felt like I have been had and conned to believe in this religion and being robbed naked off my intelligent. Then I decided to read bible. The Old Testament was very interesting and gave the history of mankind. I liked it. The when I started to read the new testament and what Jesus Christ and the rest of apostles had said, I found myself anew interest in religion. I kept reading the bible with great interest and as I was going on and on reading more, I found myself more attracted to Jesus and this religion. I was amazed how much peaceful this book was and how this man Jesus filled me with peace and tranquility. It was like I had a dose of a drug making me numb but happy. I started researching the miracles, since I kept hearing and reading that Jesus performed miracles and there were many more miracles after his death. I found a lot. But to be fair to my Islam, I searched for any kind of miracle by Mohammad and any during and after his death. I found none. It was then that I found Mohammad was not a true prophet; he was a con artist, preached and practiced terror (as jerry Farwell has mentioned). Everything about Islam concerns war, hell, and terrorizing its followers and others who are not Muslim. Conquered Iran thru. War. Massacred our people. Encouraged his solders to loot and rape and posses the property of defeated army, and preached jihad by war and sword. What kind of prophet and religion is, that encourages war and savagery and believes women are born sinners. And makes it morally accepted to marry a 9 year old baby girl. Or have shreia laws concerning how to have intercourse with livestock. Or stone woman to death or cut off the hands of someone who maybe has stolen to feed his family or may have been hungry and found no choice but to steal. It is inhumane, and Islam is way behind in today's world. Christianity is diverse and has kept up with our dynamic world. Islam never has, never could, and will never be able to do so. Because according to Muslims, Koran is perfect and nothing in it can be changed. If so then a big contradiction and there goes down the drain that Koran is eloquent and was the only miracle in islam and the book is perfect and was sent by god and god's words can not be touched because it is perfect and applies to past present and future. I found it difficult to accept Koran of yesterday in today’s world, so I am one, who says Koran is not perfect and the words are not god's words. It was Mohammad’s words that copied them from torah.
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5. "RE: Daring leaps of faith"
Posted by Dr. S. Davati on 16-Feb-03, 05:19 AM (GMT)
>I have converted to Christianity. I >was born as a Muslim >and was very much devoted >to it. I read Koran >in Arabic and prayed in >Arabic. I came to the >states and began questioning ....... ......... Good for YOU! I am glad you are content with your choice of religion! Clearly you had shopped around until you found a religion that satisfies your need for worshipping - be it an entity or a supreme being. If you do not believe that man is the master of his destiny, and therefore we need to depend on a supreme entity for favors; please hear out my questions: Why did you stop comparing Islam with more religions instead of a mere comparison among the three? Why do you prefer Christ's God to Mohammad's and/or Moses' God? If you think all three Gods are the same, then what is God's problem that he/she could not send a single messenger in order to keep us out of confusion? Most important of all: What kind of God is worth being worshiped if he/she is incapable of communicating directly with each and everyone of us? Why should we worship, fear or love God? Considering today's world with all the scientific discoveries and the formulation of laws and regulations, what good is the use of religion? If Christianity advocates peace, then why isn't the Pope leading the United Nations?.... Sincerely, Dr. S. Davati doctordavati@dr.com
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6. "RE: Daring leaps of faith"
Posted by former muslim on 16-Feb-03, 10:31 AM (GMT)
Dr Davati, You’ve asked why I compared Islam to other religions. I did it because I was preparing myself for debates with a fellow Christian who wanted me to prove to him Islam was a better religion. That’s what the turning point for me. Now let me tell you why a man/woman needs a religion and has to believe that god exists. God have given us many gifts of life. Among them are our intelligence and our morals. To know the difference between good or bad. Yes, today we have laws and regulations to make us live by the rules. But that is not enough. The laws and standards are made for the interactions with others and without. But our soul is within us and our relation with our souls only depends on ourselves and independent from the outside world. No law or regulation set by our society can influence one’s soul or ones responsibility to his or herself. You can behave properly in outset and no one will know how you treat yourself or your soul within or what is going on in your mind. You may believe that there is no God and we human can live and behave properly without god. This assumption is very wrong because our responsibility to ourselves and our soul very much depend on whether we believe in god or not. Moral standards bring us closer to god, a supreme being that our soul depends on and answers to. Otherwise, without this check and balance, we would not distinguish between right and wrong. God exists. Even today’s top physicists who search the quantum phenomena, and are researching sub atomic particle, 1/1000 times smaller than a neutron are puzzled by how and origins. The scientists can prove the existence of such particles and the great mass that comprises our universe. They can prove black hole of the theory of Einstein. They can prove that going back in time is possible, but changing event in the past is not possible. But cannot know why and where this giant mass and universe came from. They know the universe is expanding and the space containing the universe is increasing, but don’t know how space is increasing in volume from nothingness. They know black hole has zero volume but infinite mass, and light cannot escape from it. The scientists know that the universe has certain laws know one can change it. For example there must be gravity, there must be anti-gravity. The earth lucked in the sun’s gravity but the laws of universe does not let earth fall into sun, having giant gravitational pull on it. Has to spin around sun to escape from falling. We know 1+1=2, but don’t know why. Finally, the Scientists can prove the universe exists and can prove all the laws pertaining our universe, but they have not come up with the answer even a child is asking. Where did this universe come from, and who made these universal laws? The scientist know that when the first living cell was created billions year ago, also was intelligent right from its creation. The cell was intelligent to improve itself and store it in its DNA and kept changing the order of it amino acid in its gene and its DNA letters in order to become more intelligent and better serve itself generation to follow. Were did this initial intelligence came from. How did that first cell created on our earth knew that it has to evolve, and had to be intelligent in first place. When I was a kid, and traveling at night with my parents, I used to look up the sky and the stars felt so close that I thought I could touch them. I was so intrigued by its magnitude and always asked,” where did all these stars come from?” my parents did know. They always told me god created them. Today I ask the same question: Where did all of these come from Dr. Davati?
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7. "RE: Daring leaps of faith"
Posted by Dr. S. Davati on 16-Feb-03, 07:07 PM (GMT)
>Dr Davati, >You’ve asked why I compared Islam >to other religions. ..... ....... .... Dear Former Muslim: I can see everyone pondering over the simplest question of: "Where did the universe come from?", since we may never have an answer - but until such convincing answer, one is not obliged to believe in another uncertain existence(namely God). Certainly not in a "God" who is incapable of communicating directly with us and his so called "Messengers" are popping up around much more frequent than the pop-up adds on our computer monitors. Instead of copying and pasting valid pro/con arguments about God, I can refer you to a collection of articles and debates by my revered friend (Dr. Ali Sina), whose site is well known among the freethinkers and high-caliber academics and scholars: http://main.faithfreedom.org/ And for more articles click here: http://www.mukto-mona.com/ Although you chose not to address many of my questions, I am still glad that you are content with your convictions and have found serenity as a result of your search. Regards, Dr. S. Davati doctordavati@dr.com
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8. "RE: Daring leaps of faith/Koran is not miraculous"
Posted by Kaveh on 17-Feb-03, 01:16 AM (GMT)
"The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an The following are quotations from Ali Dashti, Twenty Three Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad, Allen and Unwin, London, 1985. "Among the Moslem scholars of the early period, before bigotry and hyperbole prevailed, were some such as Ebrahim on-Nazzam who openly acknowledged that the arrangement and syntax of the Qor'an are not miraculous and that work of equal or greater value could be produced by other God-fearing persons." (p. 48) "It is widely held that the blind Syrian poet Abu'l-`Ala ol-Ma'arri (368/979-450/1058) wrote his Ketab ol-fosul wa' l-ghayat, of which a part survives, in imitation of the Qor'an." (p. 48) "The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects. These and other such aberrations in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an's eloquence. The problem also occupied the minds of devout Moslems. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings." (p. 48, 49) "To sum up, more than one hundred Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, the commentators strove to find explanations and justifications of these irregularities. Among them was the great commentator and philologist Mahmud oz-Zamakhshari (467/1075-538/1144), of whom a Moorish author wrote: `This grammar-obsessed pedant has committed a shocking error. Our task is not to make the readings conform to Arabic grammar, but to take the whole of the Qor'an as it is and make Arabic grammar conform to the Qor'an.'" (p. 50) "In the field of moral teachings, however, the Qor'an cannot be considered miraculous. Mohammad reiterated principles which mankind had already conceived in earlier centuries and many places. Confucius, Buddha, Zoroaster, Socrates, Moses, and Jesus had said similar things." (p. 54) "Neither the Qor'an's eloquence nor its moral and legal precepts are miraculous. The Qor'an is miraculous because it enabled Mohammad, single-handedly and despite poverty and illiteracy, to overcome his people's resistance and found a lasting religion because it moved wild men to obedience and imposed its bringer's will on them." (p. 57) The whole book will be of interest, especially to Muslims who are concerned with "both values and problems which Islam presents to modern Muslims." (p. ix)" http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Miracle/index.html
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9. "To all specially Nader"
Posted by Observer on 17-Feb-03, 09:42 AM (GMT)
You make my point! I do not care about any religon and I think everybody can worship whatever they want, but I think pepole like you are dangerous. WE DO NOT WANT FANATIC MUSLIMS OR FANATIC CHRISTIAN OR JEWS! Since mentioning Farwell, did any of you see CBS 60 minutes about christian right? and what they acctually want......it was scary! Let the pepole choose for themselves. Ghofatre nik, pendare nik, raftare nik.
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10. "RE: To all specially Nader"
Posted by Observer on 17-Feb-03, 09:45 AM (GMT)
Kerdare nik! Sorry!
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11. "RE: To all specially Nader"
Posted by Hamzeh, Hashmi on 23-Feb-03, 11:58 PM (GMT)
Why cant you get it, Zardushti is dead, iran is islamic. Arabs did the job on you. today thefkn jewa bahai's and zardushties want make iran not muslims. We arabs will not let you do it. We arabs have oil and money and many terrorists. If we want we can make tehran into a rubble. no one will be safe in iran. we arabs will send palastinian sulecide bombers to blow themselve up in your cinemas, baghs, and bazzars. Arabs are united and we have oil money and we have Osma Bin Laden. Soon we will have the atomic bomb and no fkn, west or iranian can say anything bad about us. long live Osma Bin Ladin and Saddam Housyen. Hamzeh Hashmi
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12. "RE: To all specially Nader"
Posted by Hamzeh, Hashmi on 23-Feb-03, 11:59 PM (GMT)
Why cant you get it, Zardushti is dead, iran is islamic. Arabs did the job on you. today thefkn jewa bahai's and zardushties want make iran not muslims. We arabs will not let you do it. We arabs have oil and money and many terrorists. If we want we can make tehran into a rubble. no one will be safe in iran. we arabs will send palastinian sulecide bombers to blow themselve up in your cinemas, baghs, and bazzars. Arabs are united and we have oil money and we have Osma Bin Laden. Soon we will have the atomic bomb and no fkn, west or iranian can say anything bad about us. long live Osma Bin Ladin and Saddam Housyen. Hamzeh Hashmi
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13. "RE: To all specially Nader"
Posted by isOnlyway on 25-Sep-05, 05:52 AM (GMT)
We would like you to join us at our sound conference room in Paltalk. The room name is ++if God is for us who can be against us++ We discuss Islam in great details based on Quran and Hadiths. We prove to the world that Mohammed, the self proclaimed prophet of Islam was nothing less than a thug, rapist, thief and a killer who butchered people in cold blood. We will show you the striking similarities between Mohammed's acts and his 'true' followers today such as Osama BinLaden, Saudia Arabia government, Iran's government, and the list goes on. Last but not least, please visit our website. All our claims are documented from Hadiths and Quran. http://islameyat.com/pal/aldalil/aldalil.htm others: www.faithfreedom.org
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14. "blah blah blah"
Posted by blah blah blah on 27-Sep-05, 08:00 AM (GMT)
blah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blah >Why cant you get it, Zardushti >is dead, iran is islamic. >Arabs did the job on >you. today thefkn jewa bahai's >and zardushties want make iran >not muslims. We arabs will >not let you do it. >We arabs have oil and >money and many terrorists. If >we want we can make >tehran into a rubble. no >one will be safe in >iran. we arabs will send >palastinian sulecide bombers to blow >themselve up in your cinemas, >baghs, and bazzars. Arabs are >united and we have oil >money and we have Osma >Bin Laden. Soon we will >have the atomic bomb and >no fkn, west or iranian >can say anything bad about >us. long live Osma Bin >Ladin and Saddam Housyen. >Hamzeh Hashmi
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16. "RE: To all specially Nader"
Posted by blah blah blah on 30-Sep-05, 01:03 PM (GMT)
blah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blah > Why cant you get it, Zardushti >is dead, iran is islamic. >Arabs did the job on >you. today thefkn jewa bahai's >and zardushties want make iran >not muslims. We arabs will >not let you do it. >We arabs have oil and >money and many terrorists. If >we want we can make >tehran into a rubble. no >one will be safe in >iran. we arabs will send >palastinian sulecide bombers to blow >themselve up in your cinemas, >baghs, and bazzars. Arabs are >united and we have oil >money and we have Osma >Bin Laden. Soon we will >have the atomic bomb and >no fkn, west or iranian >can say anything bad about >us. long live Osma Bin >Ladin and Saddam Housyen. >Hamzeh Hashmi
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15. "On the Brink of a Neoconservative Nuclear War with Iran "
Posted by On the Brink of a Neoconservative Nuclear War with Iran on 28-Sep-05, 12:43 PM (GMT)
On the Brink of a Neoconservative Nuclear War with Iran Professor Paul Sheldon Foote, California State University, Fullerton pfoote@fullerton.edu September 23, 2005 Mike Whitney’s "The Inevitable War with Iran" provided details of the desperate attempts of the neoconservatives to launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack upon Iran. Indeed, before the September 11, 2001 al-Qaeda terrorist attacks on America, neoconservatives were writing about the importance in history of “fortuitous events” such as Pearl Harbor in moving Americans from anti-war sentiments to clamoring for war. The absence of new terrorist attacks in America and the resistance to coalition forces in Iraq have slowed the pace of endless wars envisioned by chickenhawk neoconservatives. By now, a majority of Americans understand that the neoconservatives lied about the Iraq War in terms of weapons of mass destruction. Unfortunately, Americans who rely upon the evening television news or the local newspaper remain unaware that the neoconservatives support the MEK (Rajavi Cult), one of the Saddam Hussein-supported terrorist groups President George W. Bush cited in his background paper for his September 2002 remarks at the United Nations and used as a pretext for the Iraq War. On January 15, 2003, MEK supporters placed a full-page advertisement in the New York Times thanking the 150 members of Congress (approximately half were Democrats and half were Republicans) who signed the Iran Statement of support for the MEK. Republican Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, the circulator of the Iran Statement, is now the sponsor of the Iran Freedom Support Act (H.R.282 in the House of Representatives; S.333 in the United States Senate, Republican Senator Rick Santorum, sponsor). Hundreds of members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans, want to spend millions of dollars of the American taxpayers’ money to corrupt the political process in Iran. No patriotic Iranian would ever vote for any Iranian candidate who had taken corruption money from the American government. Johnny Chung’s testimony that he had contributed illegally large amounts of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army’s money to the Democratic National Committee and to Democratic Party candidates became a scandal in America. Yet, America’s neoconservative lawmakers are seeking to corrupt the political processes in other countries. In the absence of “fortuitous events”, many of the neoconservatives will be voted out of office next year. Neoconservatives are betting that there are enough American dupes who will believe that Iran, lacking any nuclear weapons, is a greater nuclear threat than North Korea. Neoconservatives are betting, also, that the leaders of the Islamic Republic of Iran will blunder by pushing now for their inalienable rights to nuclear power at any cost. Iranian leaders are betting that Russia, China, and the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) countries will defend them in the United Nations. This nuclear brinksmanship could result in hatred, political instability, and a world-wide economic depression. On December 8, 1953, President Dwight D. Eisenhower gave his Atoms for Peace speech at the United Nations General Assembly. Approximately 50 years ago, America was exporting radioactive isotopes to more than 50 countries and offering to train the technicians of the world on how to generate electricity with atomic reactors. America urged the Shah of Iran to contract with an American company to build a nuclear power plant. After the Iranian Revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini halted work on a nuclear power plant in Iran because he considered nuclear power plants to be contrary to Islam. The current leaders of the Islamic Republic of Iran are offering to develop nuclear power plants and to export the results of their technological progress at lower prices than Western companies charge. The only immediate problems for the West from Iran’s desire to develop peaceful uses of nuclear power are: (1) loss of work for Western nuclear power plant contractors (2) loss of countries dependent upon the West for nuclear power (3) competition in the nuclear power plant and nuclear materials markets. The only urgent problem for the neoconservatives, the world’s most dangerous terrorists, is that the American voters might vote them out of office before they can bomb or invade any other countries. Since 1988, there has been an Atomic Energy Research Institute at King Abdulaziz City for Science & Technology in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis know that their oil resources are limited. While the Saudis are developing plans for nuclear power plants, the neoconservatives are not threatening to drop nuclear bombs on Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia still sells its oil for American dollars. Iraq and Iran switched to selling oil for Euros. Iran is planning to open in 2006 an exchange for trading oil. Any country in the world should be able to refuse to sell to any other country or to specify the currency to be used in the sale. American soldiers need to stop volunteering to die to benefit only a few greedy American pigs. Neoconservatives are betting that the Iranian leaders will provide the fortuitous event of pursuing the peaceful uses of nuclear power at any cost. Of course, the neoconservative totalitarians will not portray Iran’s leaders in the tradition of America’s Patrick Henry: “Give me liberty or give me death.” Rather than waiting for Americans to flush America’s political toilet of the neoconservative totalitarians, Iran’s political leaders might regard a nuclear attack on Iran as a fortuitous event to unite the Iranian people for decades, if not centuries, against the corrupt Western political leaders. The American hostage crisis (November 4, 1979 to January 20, 1981) was not in the interests of the people of Iran. However, the hostage crisis was useful to the MEK and to the supporters of Ayatollah Khomeini in eliminating political competition from Iranian, pro-democracy, secular nationalists. While the MEK appealed to the people of Iran to kill the American hostages, the supporters of Ayatollah Khomeini chose to keep the hostages as an embarrassment for President Jimmy Carter and as a political gift for the next American president, Ronald Reagan. While the MEK lost the power struggle during the Iranian Revolution and has nearly zero support inside Iran today, the MEK has been successful in working with corrupt political leaders in Europe (especially in France) and in America. For years, American members of Congress have been accepting contributions from MEK supporters. The MEK and the Iranian monarchists (who abolished all political parties in Iran in the 1970’s) are lobbying for the passage of the Iran Freedom Support Act to gain millions of dollars of money for corrupting the Iranian political process. The Iran Policy Committee is promoting actively the MEK (Rajavi Cult), a terrorist organization on the State Department’s list of terrorist organizations. In Iran, the MEK gained support by being the most anti-imperialist and most anti-American organization. The MEK murdered American military officers and Rockwell International employees. See, for example, this film of a meeting between Massoud Rajavi, supreme leader of the MEK, and Saddam Hussein’s representatives. The meeting of Rajavi with Taher Aljalil Haboush in the years 1998-99 (film) 14 min. http://www.negaheno.net/ Vice President Richard Cheney’s desires to develop plans for the use of nuclear weapons, including at the decision level of military commanders, to terrorize and to enslave the people of Iran and of other countries neoconservatives want to bomb or to invade represent the most dangerous and worst time in American history. Americans need to inform President George W. Bush and the neoconservative members of Congress that all American traitors will be voted out of office. As noted by the Progressives for Bush bumper sticker, the most important war crimes tribunals at The Hague might be for American neoconservatives. References “Atoms for Peace” Movie http://www.radiochemistry.org/history/video/atoms_for_peace.html Iran Freedom Support Act H.R.282 House of Representatives version: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR00282:@@@P S.333 Senate version: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SN00333:@@@P King Abdulaziz City for Science & Technology http://www.kacst.edu.sa Progressives for Bush http://progressivesforbush.com/ Whitney, Mike, “The Inevitable War with Iran”, OpEdNews.com, September 2005. http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_mike_whi_050923_the_inevitable_war_w.htm Recommended Books on the MEK (Rajavi Cult) Singleton, Anne, Saddam’s Private Army: How Rajavi Changed Iran’s Mojahedin from Armed Revolutionaries to an Armed Cult, Iran-Interlink (UK), 2003. ISBN: 0-9545009-0-3 Available from the United Kingdom: http://www.iran-interlink.org/files/child%20pages/book_I-I.htm This is the best single book available today on the MEK. Unfortunately, no American publisher is promoting this book in America. You must order it from the United Kingdom. The British author and her Iranian husband spent approximately 20 years inside the MEK, including time at Camp Ashraf, Iraq. She included extensive discussions of cult techniques and of why it is difficult to leave the MEK (Rajavi Cult) even in the United Kingdom. Banisadr, Masoud, Masoud: Memoirs of an Iranian Rebel, Saqi Books, 2004. ISBN 0863563740 Available from many sources in America, such as: http://www.amazon.com This Iranian author spent nearly 20 years of his life in the MEK, including at Camp Ashraf, Iraq. He described brainwashing and torture of MEK cult members at Camp Ashraf, Iraq. Unlike some MEK cult members, he did not die from the punishment. After leaving the MEK (Rajavi Cult), he wrote a lengthy book explaining exactly how the MEK finds new members and how it brainwashes and tortures its members. Abrahamian, Ervand, The Iranian Mojahedin, Yale University Press, New Haven, Connecticut, 1989. ISBN 0-300-05267-7 Available from many sources in America, such as: http://www.amazon.com While this book has not been updated since 1989, it contains the scholarly research of an Iranian-American professor who interviewed Massoud Rajavi and other MEK leaders. Democracy Betrayed: A Response to U.S. State Department Report on the Mojahedin and the Iranian Resistance, Foreign Affairs Committee, National Council of Resistance of Iran, B.P. 18, 95430 Auvers-sur-Oise, France. Available for free downloading from some Web sites of the MEK or of MEK supporters, such as: http://www.iran-e-azad.org/english/special/dembet.html This is my favorite of the free books the MEK and its front groups have posted online because: (1) this book is an excellent example of how communist groups claim to be democratic. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and the People’s Republic of China are examples of totalitarian countries claiming to be democratic (2) this book contains some of the names of the members of Congress the MEK likes, such as Senator John Kerry, 2004 Democratic Party candidate for President. Recommended Web Sites about the MEK (Rajavi Cult) Inter-Interlink http://www.iran-interlink.org This is Anne Singleton’s Web site in the United Kingdom. The content includes extensive documentation about the MEK (Rajavi Cult), stories of cult members who have escaped from the MEK, and a lot of European documents the American neo-conservatives (neo-Trotskyites) do not want Americans to read. Iran Didban http://www.irandidban.com/ This Iranian Web site contains massive amounts of documents on the MEK (Rajavi Cult) in English, French, Arabic, and in Persian (Farsi). Traitors USA http://groups.yahoo.com/group/traitorsusa/ My Yahoo! Group contains all of my postings plus the postings of members who choose to join the group.
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